Heartbreak, Hounds, and HR: Rethinking the Modern Leave Policy

Podcast: Hiring to Firing Podcast
Episode: Heartbreak, Hounds, and HR: Rethinking the Modern Leave Policy
Hosts: Tracey Diamond and Emily Schifter
Guest: Kate Puccio
Recorded: May 11, 2026
Aired: September 22, 2026

Tracey Diamond (00:00):
In today’s episode of Hiring to Firing, we’re going to talk about some of the quirkier forms of leaves of absence that we’ve been hearing about, such as leave for romantic breakups and something called pawternity leave, where employees ask for time off either because they got a new pet or because their pet is sick.

Emily Schifter (00:17):
So this is a trigger warning for those of our listeners who have experienced the loss of a pet that we do have some tearjerker clips from the movie Marley & Me. And Tracey and I were laughing that we both refuse to watch some of these pet movies because the dog always dies and it’s just too sad to watch. So we did want to warn those of our listeners, in all seriousness, that we’ll have that clip coming up. But I think it’s an interesting episode and an interesting topic, so listen in.

[INTRO]

Emily Schifter (00:49):
Welcome to Hiring to Firing, the podcast. I’m here with my partner and co-host, Tracey Diamond. Together, we cover all employment law issues from hiring to firing.

Tracey Diamond (00:57):
And today, we are thrilled to welcome back Kate Puccio, deputy general counsel and vice president of people at EMR USA Metal Recycling. Kate was a guest on our very first episode of Hiring to Firing, featuring a lively discussion about national origin discrimination and the first season of Emily in Paris. For those of you who have been with us since the beginning, Kate, why don’t you remind our guests about EMR Metal Recycling and your role with the company?

Kate Puccio (01:24):
Thank you so much for having me back. I’m very excited to be here. Like you said, I am deputy general counsel and vice president of people for EMR USA Metal Recycling, which is a scrap metal recycling company with a US headquarters in Camden, New Jersey. We have a small but mighty three-person legal team, so I cover just about anything that comes across my desk, and I am our labor and employment specialist. So anything dealing with employees comes to me.

Tracey Diamond (01:53):
And Kate was actually an associate at Pepper Hamilton back before Pepper became Troutman Pepper and then Troutman Pepper Locke. So I’ve known Kate a long time and it’s really great to have this opportunity to spend some time with you again today, Kate. Thanks again for joining us.

Kate Puccio (02:00):
Yeah.

Emily Schifter (02:08):
So today, in light of all of your experience dealing with people and the issues that people bring and that might come across your desk, we are going to tackle some of the quirkier forms of leaves of absences that employees have been asking for that we’ve been seeing. But before we get to some of the quirkier ones, we thought let’s start out with some of the basics. So Kate, at a high level, what are the legal obligations of employers to provide employees with time off?

Kate Puccio (02:34):
Sure. So, of course, this is gonna be based on where you are, sometimes down to the locality. But generally, let’s start with PTO. Employers are not required to give you PTO, the generic vacation time PTO, but most employers do because it’s how they attract good employees. More than 20 states and, like I was saying, even some local jurisdictions have earned or paid time sick leave laws that allow employees to accrue a certain amount of paid time per year to care for themselves or a family member who’s sick, to go to doctor’s appointments, or for issues related to domestic violence, sexual assault, or stalking. Most states also have paid leave laws for things like voting, jury duty, military leave. Military leave is, of course, also protected under federal law. And many of you are gonna be familiar with the Family and Medical Leave Act, which says that employers who have 50 or more employees within a 75-mile radius, the employer is required to give up to 12 weeks of unpaid, job-protected leave for the birth, adoption of a child, for caring for an immediate family member with a serious health condition, the employee’s own serious health condition making them unable to work, or a couple of situations related to the military as well. Beyond that, you also have the Americans with Disabilities Act, which that applies to employers who have 15 or more employees regardless of where they are. And that says that employers may have to give time off as a reasonable accommodation of the employee’s own disability. And then some states also have paid leave laws. New Jersey, where my office is located, is one of them. California and Massachusetts do as well.

Emily Schifter (04:22):
So lots of different laws, as Kate is explaining, that provide employees with different kinds of leaves of absence for lots of different reasons, which leads us to the subject of today, which we thought it would be fun to talk about some of the quirkier reasons why someone may need time off from work. So let’s start with an employee who’s going through a romantic breakup. And that brings us to our first clip, which we took from the 2010 hit movie Eat Pray Love. The movie, starring Julia Roberts, is based on the 2006 memoir by Elizabeth Gilbert, an American journalist, and it chronicles the year after Elizabeth Gilbert’s husband and her had a divorce, during which she embarks on a journey of self-discovery in Italy, India, and Bali. Fun fact: The memoir appeared on the New York Times bestseller list for nonfiction in the spring of 2006 and was still number two on the list a year and a half later in October 2008. So the film also was a financial success, grossing up more than $200 million against a $60 million budget. So let’s listen in to Elizabeth Gilbert’s explanation of why she felt the need to get out of Dodge.

[BEGIN CLIP]

Liz (05:31):
I am going to Italy.

Delia (05:32):
Italy? Why Italy?

Liz (05:34):
What did you have for lunch today?

Delia (05:35):
I don’t know. Salad?

Liz (05:36):
Exactly. I used to have this appetite for food, for my life, and it is just gone. I want to go someplace where I can marvel at something. Language, gelato, spaghetti, something.

Delia (05:52):
Agh! You’re talking like a college kid.

Liz (05:54):
Well, you know, I’ve been acting like one. Since I was 15, I’ve either been with a guy or breaking up with a guy. I have not given myself two weeks of a breather to just deal with, you know, myself.

[END CLIP]

Emily Schifter (06:05):
According to a recent survey, as many as one in three workers said that their company should offer formal time off to deal with the heartache that comes with a breakup. So Kate, what do you think are the benefits of a company offering this form of leave?

Kate Puccio (06:18):
So my biggest thing is this would be great for company morale, right? That this would be something to show that your employer really takes employees’ mental health seriously. And also that the employer recognizes that employees who are going through a breakup or, more formally, a divorce might not be as productive, they might be distracted, they might make mistakes that they otherwise wouldn’t make. And so the employer is going to give them time to regain their focus. This would be a great recruiting tool, probably, because it would be something quite unique in the US. And I think it also would be a recognition that employees are probably taking this time off anyway. They might be stepping back, not as responsive as usual. They might work from home more just because they’re not feeling up to themselves or feeling like being in public. So this would just formalize something that employees are probably already doing.

Emily Schifter (07:12):
Yeah, and I think you’re right, it would be unusual. Despite the survey results, I don’t think I very commonly at all come across an employer who offers this sort of specific leave. But I also think from a practical perspective, you’re right that people are probably taking it. Which leads to my next question is, would this sort of a leave, heartbreak or being sad from a breakup, is that something that might be covered for leave under any existing law besides just taking a sick day or vacation day to cover it?

Kate Puccio (07:37):
So it could be, right? The famous lawyer answer, “Maybe, it depends.” If your heartbreak is so severe that it qualifies as a mental disability, or if it’s so severe that you are suffering physical symptoms, then it may qualify under ADA. It could also potentially qualify under some state leaves that allow you to take leave for your own health condition.

Emily Schifter (08:03):
I think that’s an important point because those who are in the HR or employment law space are, of course, very familiar with the obligation under the ADA to give leave. But I do have some clients, especially people who aren’t familiar or maybe managers who haven’t had it come up, who are really surprised to hear that, they think they’re out of PTO or they’re out of sick leave or they’ve come back from FMLA and can’t we just move on? And they’re surprised to hear that, well, no, sometimes additional time off is something that has to be accommodated. So I think that’s a great point to remember.

Kate Puccio (08:28):
That is a very frequent conversation that I have with managers where people are saying, “Well, their FMLA ended. Why can’t they come back to work?” And I say, “Well, we have additional obligations under ADA, and depending on the state you’re in, you might have state obligations.” So it’s definitely something that people are less aware of.

Tracey Diamond (08:48):
It’s also a good way to highlight the differences between mental disability and physical disability. Just because it’s related to someone’s emotional state doesn’t mean that it’s not worthy of some time off if needed under some of these statutes. Mental disability is taken as seriously as physical disability, and employees have the same protections.

Kate Puccio (08:58):
Absolutely.

Emily Schifter (09:07):
Yeah. And in a way, it’s like a bereavement leave where employees need time off to grieve a loss or a death in their family. Is that something that companies are required to provide?

Kate Puccio (09:17):
In most cases, no. There are a few states that do require it, for example, California and Illinois. But even if it’s not required, many, many employers do offer a bereavement leave because, again, it’s something you’re seen as empathetic towards employees, and employees who are grieving are certainly… Their focus is not going to be on work. So it is something that many, many employers have. It’s also very common if you are in a collective bargaining workplace, which I have many sites that are subject to CBAs. It is something that is very common in the union environment.

Tracey Diamond (09:55):
The comment about workers not being productive while they are going through a breakup, it’s no joke. According to the same statistic cited by Emily before, of the more than 1,000 employees surveyed, 43% said a breakup negatively affected their productivity or their ability to focus, and 17% said it hurt their relationships with coworkers or managers. But 65% of employees said they would worry about being judged negatively by their company if they took time off to recover from romantic loss. So if a company were to offer a formal program, let’s say, how would you encourage employees to take the leave without judgment?

Kate Puccio (10:34):
Yeah. So the number one thing is to get buy-in from the very top of the organization because you really want to create a supportive culture where this kind of thing is seen as a positive step towards mental health. And you want to be really thoughtful about how it’s being rolled out so that the messaging is generally positive, even though we’re talking about something that is negative. Something that comes up quite frequently may be the reverse issue of employees potentially abusing the leave, right? Because we’re defining this as breakup leave, it’s different from situations where you’re taking off for birth of a child, for example. There’s only so many children that you could have, theoretically, but you could have many breakups, right? And employers really don’t want to get into the business of validating breakups and things like that.

Tracey Diamond (11:20):
It’s also hard to document, right? It’s not like a birth of a child where you could get a healthcare provider’s note or a bereavement leave where you could ask for a death certificate. How would you document a romantic breakup?

Kate Puccio (11:31):
Right. Absolutely. Of course, if it’s a formal… If it’s a dissolution of a domestic partnership or a divorce, there would be paperwork.

Emily Schifter (11:38):
Right.

Kate Puccio (11:38):
But plenty of people are not in those legally formalized relationships, and the breakups are still very meaningful. So that abuse issue is something to deal with. Another way that employers can deal with it is offering generic PTO instead of saying you have vacation days and you have sick days, putting it all in a general bucket and making employees aware that breakup leave is something that they could use the general PTO for.

Tracey Diamond (12:05):
I think that’s an important point, Kate, because for the same reason that we don’t want our employees pretending that they’re sick when they’re not because they need time off, a lot of employers have moved to just a general PTO to avoid having those issues of, well, why do you need time off? Which bucket should it go into? Just giving one generalized bucket and giving the employees agency to decide for what reason they need to take the time off is kind of an easier way to go, don’t you think?

Kate Puccio (12:29):
Absolutely. That is what our company does, and it also takes away from us having to, like you said, validate any reason for leave. Everyone is an adult. If you need to take time off from work, take your time off from work. We don’t need to be policing how or why or any of that, so long as you follow the established procedures. Another thing we do is we offer floating holidays. Companies also offer floating holidays, and you can keep that general. Right? So it’s a floating holiday, but we don’t make you take it on a holiday. You could pick next Tuesday is your holiday. And that’s another way an employee could theoretically use it for breakup leave without having to disclose. Because I do think that’s a really big part of it. If you were in a serious relationship and everyone at work knew about it, you might not want all of your coworkers to know that you’ve broken up. It might not be something that you’re ready to talk about. So making it so that your general PTO is available and employees know that they can use it for breakups seems like something a lot of employers should consider.

Tracey Diamond (13:31):
I think you’re absolutely right. So beyond time off, though, for a romantic loss, are there any other accommodations that employers can give employees beyond that actual time off?

Kate Puccio (13:41):
Sure. So I think employers who are generally flexible, I always say I hire adults and we treat you like adults. So if you need to work from home, if you need to flex your hours, if you’re part of a team that has regimented check-ins or scheduled meetings, maybe flexibility to turn your camera off for those meetings or to skip if you need to take some time off for yourself. And then also being reasonable about adjusted workloads and deadlines. I think we’ve all probably managed employees who at some point or another are going through something outside of work, and they come and they talk to us and they say, “I can’t meet this deadline because of X, Y, and Z that’s going on outside of work.” And I think if you want to be a good boss, a good leader, and a good company, you recognize that and you support your employees through it. That is why people are on a team. Other people on the team can take on the work while their teammate is dealing with whatever it is.

Emily Schifter (14:40):
So let’s turn to another atypical form of leave, which is, tongue-in-cheek, got the nickname of pawternity leave. And that will bring us to our next clip from the movie Marley & Me. Like Eat Pray Love, Marley & Me was also based on a memoir, the 2005 memoir of the same name by John Grogan. The movie version starred Owen Wilson and Jennifer Aniston as the owners of Marley, a labrador retriever. Marley is what we might call a bad dog, and the movie hilariously follows his antics. In our first clip, the Grogans are at the breeder choosing Marley from a litter of newborn puppies. Let’s take a listen.

[BEGIN CLIP]

Jenny (15:14):
Are you sure we’re ready for this?

Lori (15:16):
Well, like I told you, you gotta wait three weeks for them to be weaned before you can bring them home.

Jenny (15:20):
I’m not even gonna be here.

John (15:21):
Why?

Jenny (15:22):
I’ll be in Gainesville covering that trial.

John (15:24):
That’s all right. Well, that’s okay. It’ll give me a chance to bond with him and get a head start on training him, get him squared away before you get home.

Jenny (15:31):
That’s true. Well, how are we gonna pick one?

Lori (15:34):
Girls are 300, boys are 275. Except for that little guy there. Him you could have for 200 even.

Jenny (15:37):
This one? You’re so sweet. You’re like a little clearance puppy. Hello, puppy.

John (15:47):
This one likes you. Clearance puppy likes you.

Lori (15:52):
Well, that’s your guy.

Jenny (15:54):
Oh, I was gonna pick you anyway. Don’t tell anybody. Don’t tell the others.

[END CLIP]

Emily Schifter (15:58):
So what do you think, Kate? Should companies give employees time off when they get a new puppy?

Kate Puccio (16:03):
So I think this is a really hard one because having had a new puppy before, I know that there’s a lot of demands on your time. They can’t be left alone. They’re getting up multiple times through the night to go potty and things like that. It sounds like a really great benefit, but how do you police this? Right? So as an employer, you only have so much time. Do you really want to be managing a pawternity leave policy? Some employers may say yes. If you’re an employer who has dogs in the office, maybe you’re an outdoor company or in the pet-related industry, yes, absolutely. But I think most employers are gonna look at it and say the admin burden of administering a pawternity program is a little bit higher than the potential benefits.

Tracey Diamond (16:54):
Actually, only 5% of companies currently provide this pawternity leave. I could see where other employees that don’t have pets could get annoyed that some employees are getting this benefit that they’re not able to get because they didn’t buy a new puppy. But what about time off when the family pet gets sick or worse, passes away? In Marley & Me, the comedy takes a sad turn at the end when the family says goodbye to a very sick Marley before he is euthanized.

Emily Schifter (17:20):
Let’s take a listen.

[BEGIN CLIP]

John (17:24):
It’s okay. You don’t have to do anything. You don’t have your usual energy. Remember how we were always saying what a pain you are? You’re the world’s worst dog. Don’t believe it. Don’t believe it even for a minute. ‘Cause you know we couldn’t find a better dog. You know what made you such a great dog is you loved us every day, no matter what. That’s an amazing thing. You know how much we love you? Love you so much. Love you more than anything. I don’t know exactly where we go from here, but I want you to remember you’re a great dog, Marley. You’re a great dog.

[END CLIP]

Tracey Diamond (18:29):
Last October, believe it or not, a New York City councilman proposed expanding the city’s Earned Safe and Sick Time Act to allow workers to use sick time for pet-related medical care. This would be another reason to use the leave, I want to make it clear, and not additional time off. Do you think it’s a good idea?

Kate Puccio (18:47):
Maybe. Lots of people see pets as an extension of their family. I have lost a pet before. It was extraordinarily difficult. There was a lot of grief there. So, pros, it’s similar to the heartbreak or bereavement leave. It would be great as an employer, a good recruiting tool, you’re seen as very sympathetic. But again, the potential for abuse and then the admin burden, right? There’s, again, theoretically no limit on the number of pets that you can have, and someone could suffer multiple deaths in one year, that sort of thing. So again, I’m seeing it as probably the admin burden is a little bit higher than what the benefits are. But this again is why I would encourage employers really to have this generic bucket PTO policy and then put it in people’s minds that it can be used for all these different kinds of things.

Emily Schifter (19:46):
I think it’s a good example too of just how tough it’s become for employers, especially who are in lots of states that have cities with separate laws, to comply with all these sick leave laws because they all have slightly different reasons and most of them overlap and are similar and are, of course, what you would expect. But there is a lot of admin burden, and I think historically, absolutely, we’ve seen lots of employers go to the PTO model because it’s just so much easier to not have to try and track it. But I’m also starting to see some employers say it is too tough to make my PTO policy comply with all these various state laws, and so they’re almost wanting to shift back to say, “And here’s your sick time.” And if you want to use it for you or for your family member, for your pet, that time gets burned down. But it’s tough. There’s not an easy answer, I would say.

Kate Puccio (20:28):
Absolutely. That is something that I am dealing with every year, and I’m in 13 to 15 states in the United States and down to multiple different localities. I’m constantly having to look at our vacation policy to make sure that we are compliant. And I definitely hear you, employers are saying, “Well, I’m just gonna go back to the sick time and the vacation time,” because the admin burden, like you said, of tracking it, and in these various different states, they often have state-specific portals that you have to use.

Emily Schifter (21:03):
Right.

Kate Puccio (21:03):
And all these different things. So while generally I am happy to see that we are recognizing that employees have lives outside of work and they need to take this time, certainly if you are a multi-jurisdictional employer, you probably are needing to employ a specific person to handle all of this. And then, I know I’m a lawyer, so I’m gonna say call your lawyer, but I don’t see how you could do this without spending money on a labor and employment lawyer because it is very complicated.

Tracey Diamond (21:30):
It becomes particularly tricky when you have one bucket of PTO that you want to apply to your state or city sick leave policy where the sick leave policy or the sick leave law may not require you to pay it out at termination, but some states anyway require PTO pay out at termination, and market is for many companies to pay out PTO at termination. And then some of the states and city sick leave laws require carryover, so employees can accrue a lot of time that winds up costing the company money at the end of the employment life cycle where if they had just given sick time to comply with the sick leave policy, they wouldn’t have had to pay anything if the employee didn’t use it. So it does become rather nuanced. And I agree with you, Kate, it’s something that employers should probably ask for help. So for companies considering offering the type of leave benefits we’ve been discussing today or any other kind of leave of absence, are there any special considerations?

Kate Puccio (22:23):
Yes. So my number one piece of advice is to actually have a written policy. If you are an employer of any level of sophistication, if you basically are above that, if you’re at the ADA threshold of 15 employees, you should have a written policy. It is just going to be helpful for you, helpful for your employees, and it’s probably going to save you money that you would otherwise spend calling your lawyer for every situation. When you’re creating the policy, you want to think about, for things like pawternity leave, what kinds of pets are included in the policy? Are you going to allow it for just cats and dogs? What about hamsters, gerbils, ferrets, birds, exotic animals? Those are the things. Someone is going to come to you and say, “Hi, I have a rare Bengal tiger that’s the only one in the U.S. Can I take off for it?”

Tracey Diamond (23:19):
“My llama is sick.” [laughter]

Kate Puccio (23:22):
Right. Yes, my llama, my pig, like, things that you wouldn’t think of. Someone is going to come to you and say, “I have this pet.” Then you want to think about, does the benefit cover bringing home a new pet or bereavement only? For heartbreak leave, thinking about the admin burden, does it only cover the breakup of legally recognized partnerships or is it all kinds of romantic breakups? How would you document that? Do you really want to get into that level of detail? I’m going to tell you no, but maybe you do. How many days off will be available? Is the time paid or unpaid? How are you going to cap? Will you put a cap on the number of days per year that the employee can take? How are you defining the year time period? Calendar year? Rolling 365? And then other things to consider, are there alternatives to time off? For example, for new pets, can the employee bring the puppy into work? Again, if you’re coming to me, I’m going to tell you that that is a really cute idea, but you shouldn’t do that.

Tracey Diamond (24:29):
Although some companies really do. They really allow for that. And then there’s the whole issue of service animal versus emotional support animal and the requirements there.

Kate Puccio (24:38):
And then you get into, say it’s a dog, “Oh, so-and-so is afraid of dogs,” or allergic to dogs, and there just becomes a lot, again from an admin perspective to manage.

Tracey Diamond (24:48):
I was on an airplane recently and there was two cats and a dog in the row right in front of me. [laughter]

Kate Puccio (24:53):
Oh my goodness.

Tracey Diamond (24:54):
It was like a whole menagerie there. [laughter]

Kate Puccio (24:56):
Yes, I see, that could be a whole other episode. Service animals.

Tracey Diamond (25:02):
Right.

Emily Schifter (25:03):
They don’t get along, they have accidents.

Kate Puccio (25:04):
Exactly.

Tracey Diamond (25:05):
There’s a lot of meowing going on on the plane.

Kate Puccio (25:08):
Yeah. And it does a disservice to true service animals who really are a medical device and they are put at risk from these emotional support. But I diverge. I think the most important thing also to consider in a policy is flexible work. We know that flexible work for office-based workers, it’s a great recruiting tool and it also really supports the mental health of employees. And so even if you’re not an employer who is going to consider full-time work from home, which I totally understand, look at flexible working arrangements or partial work from home arrangements and then allow employees to lean into them when they have a medical need.

Tracey Diamond (25:48):
Getting back to the issue of pawternity leave or pet-friendly accommodations, can you think of any other pet-friendly alternatives that companies can consider as a benefit for employees?

Kate Puccio (25:59):
Yeah. So I’m going to suggest a couple of things and these are actually things that our company does and often these things are at no cost to the employer, which is great. You just get to advertise that they exist and you don’t have to pay for it. So something that we do is we offer a discount on pet insurance. And the pet insurance also has a specialty store where people can shop at that store and they get all sorts of discounts and things like that. Another thing that people can do is partner with a doggy daycare to provide discounts for employees. I know that’s very popular for human daycare, but that’s also something great for doggy daycare. If you have a corporate giving program, consider adding an animal welfare organization to that, you could host lunch and learns that are focused on pet-related topics, which we have a monthly wellness lunch and learn at my company. And that’s actually a great idea. I’m going to suggest something related to animals for our next lunch and learn.

Tracey Diamond (27:03):
Great way to bring people together with common interests. Yeah.

Kate Puccio (27:06):
Yes. And who doesn’t love puppy pictures.

Tracey Diamond (27:09):
Right.

Kate Puccio (27:09):
Right? Kitty pictures or whatever it is. And then if you look at your bringing your pet to work policies, that could be a whole different episode, as we’ve already said. But look at it. See if there is a way to support it or other ways to encourage people to make pets part of the discussion at work.

Emily Schifter (27:30):
Yeah, those are all great ideas. So any other thoughts for employers out there who are listening to this and thinking, “Well, I don’t know if either of these is right for me, but maybe I want to think about if there’s something unique I could be offering to my employees.” Any other thoughts that you might have for someone in that boat?

Kate Puccio (27:44):
I love that an employer would be thinking about their employees. And that’s really what you need to do is think about your employees, think about what it is that they value. Look at your demographics, see what life stage the majority of your employees are in or the plurality of your employees are in. Think about what is important to them. You might even do this through an anonymous company survey. We do an anonymous company survey and it has given us some really good feedback about things that employees care about that we didn’t know about. And so you might not be able to offer heartbreak or pawternity leave specifically, but really being in tune to what your workforce cares about and what they might want leave for or other benefits that they might want is important. And it might tune you into some low-cost or no-cost ways to improve retention and support your team.

Emily Schifter (28:37):
Really great point. Well, thank you so much, Kate, for joining us today. This was so interesting and I think our listeners are gonna get a lot out of it.

Kate Puccio (28:44):
Thanks for having me.

Emily Schifter (28:45):
Thank you to our audience as always for listening to today’s episode. Don’t forget to visit our blog, hiringtofiring.law, and subscribe so you can get the latest updates. And please make sure to also subscribe to this podcast on whatever podcast platform you use. And don’t forget to check out our firm’s other podcasts on troutman.com/podcasts. We look forward to next time.

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