Series: Inside Practice
Episode: Creating Value Through Cross-Selling
Host: Allison Perlman
Guest: Julie Lutfi
Allison Perlman (00:04):
Hi, everyone. I’m here today with Julie Lutfi, a partner in Troutman’s Boston office.
Hi, Julie!
Julie Lutfi (00:15):
Hey, how are you doing?
Allison Perlman (00:17):
I am good.
So you represent institutional investors and organizations in the healthcare and other industries with a focus on transactions involving biotechnology, pharmaceuticals, med tech, and digital health. You sit in the Boston office while I sit in the LA office, and my practice is quite different from yours. I’m in the energy space, although there are some overlaps. But the reason we got to know each other was through a cross-selling opportunity with one of your clients, which I thought was an excellent topic for today. So let’s jump into it.
Cross-selling, it can sometimes sound transactional. In your view, what does good cross-selling actually look like when it’s done well, both for the client and within the organization?
Julie Lutfi (01:05):
Sure. In my view, cross-selling when done well is actually not selling at all. It needs to come through naturally. The way I approach my business development strategy is really through developing genuine, true relationships with the clients. And so when I’m introducing them to somebody else outside of my domain of expertise, it’s really almost as if I were introducing them to a friend of mine. I know they have an issue, and I have somebody who can help them solve it. So I don’t approach it lightly. I do a lot of research about the people that I introduce to my clients, because I don’t wanna do anything to harm that relationship, but I also want them to have someone who can help them solve whatever issue they’re dealing with.
So either it’s on an ad hoc basis, they have a specific issue, or I have a friend who has a different area of expertise, and I thought they would just get along, and so I’m just gonna introduce them. But it comes through very organically. It doesn’t… I try really hard not to make it seem transactional.
Allison Perlman (02:22):
Right, because what I’m hearing is two things. One, there’s a need. One of your clients who you’ve developed a relationship with has a specific need, so you pull someone in. Secondly is if you think they could develop an organic relationship.
Which leads me to a question that I had, is that there’s a lot of trust involving bringing a colleague into the relationship that you’ve built. So what makes you comfortable in putting someone else in front of your client, and what makes that introduction successful?
Julie Lutfi (02:53):
Trusting that the person you’re introducing them to is the right person. So for me, it’s a bit different here. I started working with Troutman about five to six months ago. And so I wanted to develop new relationships with new folks to do the cross-selling. So again, when I had been with a different firm for many, many years and knew the individuals I was introducing them to, that was fairly easy. It was the same go-to people. With the new firm, what I had to do is actually interview individuals or do a lot of research. Talk to other colleagues to know that the person I was going to introduce them to did not only know from a technical perspective what they were going to present, but that the relationship that they develop with clients or their work ethic really matched mine. I have a very high threshold for the level of services I provide to my clients, and that’s really high touch, following closely what my clients need, how satisfied they are with the services. I call them all the time, not just to follow up on something specific that we’re working on, but just generally how they’re doing. And, for better or worse, I expect anyone who will work with them to have the same level of client dedication and service that I would provide. So it’s not just about finding the right technical fit, but it’s also about finding the person that I know will care as much about them as I do, which is not always easy.
Allison Perlman (04:28):
So it sounds like you’re looking at it from a global perspective, from a relationship fit, and from a stylistic fit in terms of the client service and making sure that that person will adhere to the same level of client service that you would expect on a transaction.
Julie Lutfi (04:42):
That’s right.
Allison Perlman (04:43):
Or within a client relationship.
And so you can introduce your colleagues/your trusted colleagues to your clients, but how do you spot an opportunity? When do you know it’s appropriate or it’s a good time to make that introduction? And how do you know when it’s time to pull someone in from another practice without making the client feel like they’re being sold something, which you’ve already touched on a little.
Julie Lutfi (05:06):
Yeah. No, and I think that just goes to knowing your client really well. So I’m a corporate lawyer, and it’s a little bit easier for me because as a corporate lawyer, you’re exposed to a lot of issues. So if I’m talking to a client about a labor and employment issue, which would fall under a lot of things that we’re working on with them, it’s very easy for me to bring in a labor and employment person.
With that said, with clients that I don’t necessarily have a specific transaction that I’m working on and it’s more of a corporate counseling type thing, I take it upon myself to know about what the client is doing, to know about their company. I set up reminders or alerts on Google to know when there’s a specific issue that I’m working on, to the extent there’s anything new that’s gonna come up in the news. I like to know about what my clients are doing, about their industry, and if I get a specific notification about something they’re working on, I’ll think, “Oh, there’s a specific litigation opportunity here.” And I don’t say to Client ABC, “Oh, something came up in the news. Let me introduce you to someone.” I try to weave it into a conversation, and I’ll say just in passing, “Oh, by the way, I read this article about something relevant to your company or your industry specifically.” And I’ll say, “We have really good folks here. Just let me know if it would ever make sense.” And so I just drop seeds just based on what I know would be relevant to their company specifically at that time.
Allison Perlman (06:43):
So a big thing I’m hearing is knowing what’s going on with your clients. Knowing what’s going on in the industry, keeping track of what’s going on, what they’re working on, what’s happening to them, and I’m guessing you do that through conversations. You mentioned client alerts. That’s a great piece of advice. And so that’s always another reason, despite the cross-selling side, is just having a touch point with them and keeping that contact with them as well.
Julie Lutfi (07:06):
Yeah, that’s right, and we have great internal resources for that. We have a whole Intelligize team that will help you do this. So you, as the attorney, you always have a lot going on. You can reach out to firm resources to do that for you, such that you have a system set up to be made aware of what is going on in a specific industry.
Allison Perlman (07:27):
Which is so important, and I guess that’s just a natural way to start a conversation with the clients. And what I’m hearing, it sounds like it’s not that you do a deal with client and move on to the next. It seems like these are relationships that you’re building that you have continual contact with them. So when you hear of an opportunity, and you also develop relationships within the firm, so when you hear of an opportunity, it’s just a natural introduction, and it’s very organic, as opposed to seeming very transactional.
Julie Lutfi (07:55):
Yeah, absolutely. And it’s also a lot of work, and you have to remember that if you introduce someone to your client, you have to continuously check in on that relationship. You’ve could’ve spent years developing a relationship with a client and then introduce them to someone that you tell them, “You can trust this person. I’m confident that they’re very capable from a technical perspective. They’re a good person. They’re going to follow up with you.” You’ve spent years developing this relationship and providing certain services, but if that person doesn’t provide the same level of services that you’ve told them they would, that can just quickly, not ruin your relationship, that would probably be hard to do on a one-off, but it will reflect poorly on you.
So you have to continuously also check in, make sure they’re happy with the relationship, check in with your colleague, make sure that the client is also working with them the same way that they would work with you. So I think also cross-selling to your existing clients, especially those with whom you’ve developed the relationship over years, it’s critical that you stay involved, not to micromanage, but just to ensure that both sides are happy with the way in which the relationship is going.
Allison Perlman (09:14):
And what are ways you stay involved? Because I find in my experience, I make a lot of introductions, I’m like, “Go with it.” So what are some tips you would have for someone who, like yourself or like me or someone else who’s cross-selling, what tips would you have to stay involved in both parts of the relationship, just to make sure that it’s going in the direction that you want it to go to be able to maintain your original relationship?
Julie Lutfi (09:37):
Of course. So I think it’s a tricky balance between not micromanaging, but staying involved enough for the clients to know that you know what’s going on.
Allison Perlman (09:47):
Right.
Julie Lutfi (09:47):
And also for your colleague to trust that you trust them with the relationship. And so for me, it generally looks like, “Here’s my client, I’ve made the introduction, I trust that you know what to do, and I trust that you’re going to treat them in this way.”
So I do also spend a lot of time telling them, “Here’s how I do things. Let me tell you more about my client. Let me tell you about how they like to do work.” And I put a lot of effort on the front end, such that by the time they do get the work, I hand it off, and I hand it off completely. I don’t want to be copied unless they want me to be. I don’t, again, I go to great lengths not to micromanage. But I do check in with my client regularly to make sure they’re happy with the relationship, to make sure that they’re happy with the level of services. And also, I just check in generally with my colleagues and trust that they will let me know if something’s going wrong. And then, to the extent something does go wrong, I either try to fix it, or we try to replace a relationship if we have to. That hasn’t happened a lot, thank God.
Allison Perlman (10:56):
Fingers crossed.
And so for people working in large organizations, like we’re at a large firm, we’re in different offices, we’re across the country, whether it’s a law firm or a business, what’s one thing that they can do to get better at creating opportunities across teams rather than staying in their silos?
Julie Lutfi (11:21):
I think it’s critical to engage with your colleagues. Have conversations with people in different groups. Proactively reach out to someone in IP, someone in health care. These issues that come up regularly with your clients, try to develop, again, genuine relationships, not just with your clients, which is very important, but also with your colleagues.
And the more you develop these genuine relationships, the more confident you’ll feel presenting them, again, in an organic way. Maybe you will become also friends to the extent you’re not already friends with them, and you’ll go have drinks with them and find out about more things that they do. Find out about their clients. It’s really about developing this true, genuine connection and developing a relationship within the firm as well, in groups outside of your own.
Allison Perlman (12:15):
You emphasize connection, which I completely agree with, and I think that’s the number one criteria. I also think you said, “Get to know them,” because it’s important that you understand what people across your firm or in, if you’re in a business, across your organization are doing. Because if I don’t know what you’re doing or you don’t know what I’m doing, then we can’t cross-sell.
So I think, to elaborate on that, it’s super important to also know what type of work your colleagues are doing. Which can be hard, because often you’re in your silo and you’re working on what you’re doing, but I think I love that point that you said, just get to know your colleagues in addition to your clients.
Julie Lutfi (12:51):
And it’s not just about the technical aspect of what we do, too. It’s, maybe you have a colleague who loves to golf and who’s going to the Masters in April, and you have a client who’s going to the Masters, and maybe you’ll hook them up. Or somebody has a house in somewhere in Arizona, and I’m using clients’ true examples that come up, and it’s like, “Oh, I know this person’s doing that next weekend. You’re doing this. You guys should link up.” And especially in the world where AI is taking over such a great part of what we do, I can’t think of anything more important in our field than keeping the human contact, genuine connections between people.
And I think people will be craving that very soon. We’re all good at our jobs. If we’re not knowledgeable about a specific area, there are such easy ways to find out about these things, to learn about these things. The human connection, you can’t make that up. And so that’s really what I try to emphasize and bank on when I do cross-selling.
Allison Perlman (13:56):
That’s amazing. I love it. It’s the human element. And so many conversations I have with people on different topics always comes back to the human element, the relationships. And it sounds like not only are you introducing colleagues, but you’re introducing friends, people who have similar interests, and that can be very beneficial and grow your network, and really help with your cross-selling opportunities.
Julie Lutfi (14:16):
That’s right. And you know, also, at a certain point when you develop such genuine relationships with people, if I know that, we all use LinkedIn these days, and just one of the examples that’s coming up is I will ask my existing clients for favors for them to introduce me to someone. And it doesn’t feel inorganic as if I’m asking a client for a favor on a work thing. It’s I’m texting my friend whether they can make a connection with another one of their friends. And so I’m cross-selling with others and just bringing people into a group chat, and just reaching out to the individual people on the human level is just… And you almost forget that you’re cross-selling at some point is the point I’m trying to make.
Allison Perlman (15:09):
This has been so informative. I know I’ve learned a lot and cross-selling is always something I’m working on. And so thank you so much, Julie, and I wish you so much luck with your future business development and cross-selling, and I’m sure we’ll be working together in the future.
Julie Lutfi (15:24):
Absolutely. So thank you. Look forward to it. Thank you.
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