Title: Powering Through the Environmental Challenges of EV Development
Speakers: Andrea Wortzel and Byron Kirkpatrick
Andrea Wortzel (00:07):
So I’m glad we had a chance to catch up. I’ve been wanting to talk with you about electric vehicles and all the manufacturing that’s going on in the Southeast.
Byron Kirkpatrick (00:14):
Yea. Me, too.
Andrea Wortzel (00:14):
Have you seen a real explosion?
Byron Kirkpatrick (00:16):
It’s been amazing. Yeah, if you look at just the state of Georgia alone, if you look at the last 16 months, the news releases coming out, major investments from Hyundai, Rivian Automotive, and now Kia, and all that surrounds that, the jobs, new facilities, new infrastructure, it’s really amazing.
Andrea Wortzel (00:38):
And the Southeastern states really seem to be recruiting those kinds of developments, wouldn’t you say?
Byron Kirkpatrick (00:43):
Yeah. Some of our involvement with some of these companies that are looking to build their first production facility, for example, they really have the whole, even international available to them. And most of them tend to focus kind of North Carolina through into Alabama, Mississippi. But there’s an absolute focus on the Southeast.
Andrea Wortzel (01:09):
Are there any unusual aspects of when they’re choosing locations that you’ve observed?
Byron Kirkpatrick (01:14):
For them, what seems to be most important is the workforce. And that makes a big difference, obviously. The state’s abilities to work to train up the workforce, but also connectivity. Georgia has an immense port. The Atlanta airport can connect you to just about anywhere. And that’s been real attractive along with the schooling systems. But I also think the regulatory climate helps a lot. States are invested in promoting economic development in this way. And EV is sort of the next great thing from an economic development perspective.
Andrea Wortzel (01:54):
And the great thing is that our team has the skills to help with the siting and with the development of the site. What are some of the permits that you’ve encountered as companies try to build out their sites?
Byron Kirkpatrick (02:04):
Sure. And you know, by our team, the environmental team certainly plays a critical role in this, but I think more broadly, the firm, with its sort of energy pedigree as well as some of the experience we have, I think the people that everyone wants to talk to are like Adam Kobos and Anne Loomis who understand the tax implications and benefits available to folks who are making these types of investments. What we’ve been helping people do is sort of chart out that timeline because you still have to get permits. A Corps of Engineers permit can take anywhere from six months if you’re amazing to too much longer. And charting that out and coming up with permitting strategies and sites that will permit on the timeline you need to meet your market pressure or to meet your sort of production deadlines is critical.
It takes sort of a sophisticated view of environmental permitting. So Army Corps of Engineers permits, there are state equivalent permits, obviously. And then when you get closer to breaking ground, obviously construction, storm water, things like that become important, to plan ahead.
Andrea Wortzel (03:24):
And one of the things that I found that’s kind of unique about EV permitting and like you said, thinking through the timelines is that a lot of the manufacturing seems to be going faster than a lot of the environmental standards that currently exist for certain types of permitting. Have you heard anything about that?
Byron Kirkpatrick (03:39):
Yeah, absolutely. A lot of, just take the water, for example, if an EV factory is gonna be returning water, process water to the sewer system, they would need to meet certain pretreatment standards depending on the nature of their activities and the pollutants of concern. Well, those standards were set in the early ’80s, wasn’t it?
Andrea Wortzel (04:05):
That’s right.
Byron Kirkpatrick (04:06):
And for an entirely different type of production. And so there’s definitely a big role for us to play in trying to manage these innovative technologies and innovative production approaches with historical regulations that really weren’t designed to fit those. And I think it’s, be interested in your experience, but I think it’s particularly interesting in the EV space because to the employee level, these companies are trying to save the world. They’re trying to protect the environment and they’re driven by very genuine focus on those things. And they want to do everything right. All of our clients do. That’s why they hire us is to make sure they’re doing it right. But in this space in particular, that’s been interesting.
Andrea Wortzel (04:58):
Yeah, that’s absolutely true. And I agree with you that a lot of the regulations are not keeping up with the manufacturing. And there are materials that are being imported that have to be registered under TSCA, that are vital to EV development. And like you said, there is a real sense of urgency of getting these manufacturing operations up and running and getting these electric vehicle batteries out on the road, trying to get the timing to work properly and to get the registrations and the permits that you need to have in place sometimes takes a lot more time than desired.
Byron Kirkpatrick (05:32):
And we’ve talked a little bit about how important it is to get the permits you need to build and go vertical with your production facility so that you can meet your timeline, but then there’s operational permits on the environmental side. What experience have you had with some of those important permits?
Andrea Wortzel (05:49):
Well, you mentioned wastewater and that’s a big one. Coupled with that, there’s a lot more emphasis on PFAS and some questions about what types of constituents might be present as part of electric vehicle battery manufacturing and going up and down the supply chain to try and answer those questions and make sure that you’re completing the pretreatment paperwork properly is a big issue and a big question. And then as I mentioned, TSCA and even trying to figure out how you can recycle and reuse the materials that are generated during the battery manufacturing process has been really challenging.
Byron Kirkpatrick (06:26):
Yeah. That’s obviously something that’s facing the whole industry. We mentioned sort of their genuine commitment to doing things for the environment and I think total lifecycle of the batteries, for example, is a great example. And those are not new regulations, are they?
Andrea Wortzel (06:44):
No, they’re not. They’re old as well. And also just the issue of a lot of the, like we talked about TSCA and the materials that are needing to be brought in to be used. Once they’re here, they’re really valuable. And so you don’t wanna have any of them waste and finding ways to recycle them and reuse them in the process is something that I think a lot of the EV manufacturers are focused on because we don’t produce those materials in the United States, at least as of right now.
Byron Kirkpatrick (07:12):
As far as sort of extracting the minerals at the end of that, that’s obviously a very, if you take the battery out of the car, for example, or take, for example, the eVTOL, the electric vertical takeoff and landing industry, where it’s battery powered flight. So the battery reaches a certain level of degradation there and needs to come out of the plane because it’s literally fighting gravity. But it’s then well suited for other purposes for utility scale storage of energy – maybe even in cars and things like that. So these companies are focused on each iterative use of the battery, but eventually it becomes just it’s parts. And that extraction industry obviously involves a lot of permitting as a heavily regulated area.
Andrea Wortzel (08:05):
Right. And if you’re taking apart a battery to recycle the innards, there are hazardous materials involved. And then you get into the question of, am I gonna need a treatment storage and disposal permit? Which has implications to your point earlier these companies wanna feel like they’re saving the world and helping the environment and then turning around and trying to get a treatment storage and disposal facility has different connotations. So trying to navigate that.
Byron Kirkpatrick (08:31):
Yeah. So what are some of the other issues that clients in the EV space are facing?
Andrea Wortzel (08:36):
Well, one other thing that I’ve heard is the question about how we build out charging station infrastructure. A lot of states have approached the regulatory aspects of charging station infrastructure differently. So there’s a real patchwork out there and trying to figure out who’s gonna own the charging station, who’s gonna build the charging station, who’s gonna maintain it? And will all cars and batteries be compatible with the charging stations that are out there? So I think that’s an issue that’s facing some of our clients.
Byron Kirkpatrick (09:03):
And I suspect there’s a local permitting element to some of these issues.
Andrea Wortzel (09:09):
Absolutely.
Byron Kirkpatrick (09:10):
That states could really probably help pave the way to remove that barrier.
Andrea Wortzel (09:15):
I agree. It’s really exciting to be working with our clients as they try and navigate these issues all the way from identifying sites to building out the site to starting manufacturing.
Byron Kirkpatrick (09:25):
And they’re doing really cool stuff. It’s really cool stuff. Electric flight, electric vehicles, really is inspiring and I love partnering with them and working with you and many others at the firm on these issues.
Andrea Wortzel (09:40):
I do too. It was good talking to you today.
Byron Kirkpatrick (09:42):
Great to see you.
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